Ep. 32: Thessalonians: Stand Firm

This week on 100% Maybe, we walk through 2 Thessalonians 1 & 2 and have a real, honest conversation about what it means to stand firm in your faith. Paul writes to a church under pressure, reminding them that their growing faith and love are a witness to others, even in times of trouble. 

We also step into the tension of Paul’s words about judgment and the end times. Not from a place of fear or speculation, but with clarity: every person will have to decide what they believe about Jesus.

The good news is this: when we trust in Jesus, His righteousness becomes ours, and our sin is dealt with at the cross. But when we reject Him, we’re left to carry that weight on our own.

This isn’t a conversation meant to stir fear, but to point to hope. A hope that gives us strength to endure, confidence to stand firm, and an invitation to respond to the life Jesus offers.  What we believe about Jesus matters the most.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the 100% Navy Podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Stewart, the creative director here at Community Life Church in Gulf Breeze, Florida. Each episode, we'll get together to talk about the scripture passage that we'll be studying in our Sunday services. While this started as a resource for our church, we found it applies to all of us who are interested in what it looks like to follow Jesus. So wherever you are on your journey of faith, we hope these conversations will connect you to the source of life we have in Jesus and to the greater story that God is still writing today. Here's our episode. Nervous Optimism. I like that. Nervous optimism. I can get on board with that. Yep. Uh welcome back, you guys. We're rolling right into this episode of 100% baby. Episode 30 something, two, three, one, something like that. We're in the 30s, though. I know that. So uh thanks for jumping in, tuning in. I hope this is helpful to you guys as we're continuing our study in uh Thessalonians, first and second Thessalonians, and this week we are jumping to 2nd Thessalonians. We are. We are ready or not, here we go. So I have a question right off the bat. Oh, are you ready to declare yourself an end times prophetic scholar at this point?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

I am not. I know, so close.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Dang. You're so confident though. You're like, I thought maybe we're gonna be like, we are now the church who studies only end time prophecy. Only focus on end time prophecy. Because let me tell you, there's a lot of churches out there that do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Prudy, I I have I have heard that, and I cannot believe it. Like I am amazed.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

I'm amazed. It really would be that would be that would be terrible.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Do you think that they're sitting and saying, Do you know there are churches that never talk about it? And they think we're crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

And they think we're crazy. I I think we're all crazy. We all are our own, whatever version of crazy you're okay with, that's what you are. That's right. It's a flavor. Fair?

SPEAKER_02 2:02

That's fair.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Um follow-up question. Oh. Do I think you made the statement this week you've never taught end times necessarily. Has it shaped your theology? Like this study, having to teach it, having to study and dig into it? Has that have you shifted or changed or realized anything in your own theology about end times?

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Sure. I I it it reinforced what I what I felt, I think, even in this, because I still I still haven't I've not taken a formal class on pre-post mid-trib.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

The tribunal you got millennial kingdoms, so you got a millennial, pre-mill, it's a lot of pre's, post.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yes. So we're we're what I have is probably dangerous because what I have is what technology offers us this day, which is this person's opinion on this, this person's opinion on this, and then I have the systematic theology, which is an exhaustive reading of all of the things together. And it it doesn't, I mean, it offers some clarity, but it's clarity in the direction of the way that person feels. Yeah. So so what what I have anchored, what I've discovered, and I and I find most comfort in this, this is why we'll never be that church that you're talking about, is even in the text we're going to look at today, Paul ends with a so then. It's at the end of it, he's like, so then just go do what you're supposed to do. Like it's it's a really here's all of these big grand thoughts, and then so then go do this. I'll we can start with the end in mind and then we can work back. Okay. Because in the somebody asked the question today, and it was a brilliant, wonderful, marvelous question. And the question was are we assuming that Paul is offering us a new thought or a prophetic thought or new teaching on end times? Right? So as we read here in Thessalonians, is Paul going, thus says the Lord, and then give us a new thought. And I had to sit there and go, ah. And this is my belief. I don't know for sure. I would assume and believe that Paul has derived the things that he's saying here from all of his studies in the Hebrew text. There's plenty in the Hebrew text about end times and um and the second coming of the Messiah. I hear people say, does what does the what is the heat what does the Old Testament say about Jesus' return? They would never mention Jesus in that way, right? But they would talk about the Messiah. So we're making the jump, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:44

So you're already anointed one.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah, the anointed one or Messiah, or mess, what's the Hebrew word? Forget it. Um one topic at a time. One topic at a time. So they they have tons in Daniel. There's all sorts of writing. Um, Ezekiel has some. So you can go through and you could you can read through those Old Testament prophets and have plenty for him to write about. I think what he's doing is he's offering us a condensed teaching on what he believes those texts say.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

And I think two five, he says, Don't you remember I told you about all this when I was with you? Yeah, the other the other, go ahead. Well, I was just it that makes you believe he's already taught them this. He's already, they already know it, and he's reminding them, hey, remember we we talked about.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Remember that time? Yeah. Yeah. What uh what I have to say on Sunday, and if I forget, somebody remind me. We're walking into a class that we've missed chapter one, or we missed that. We really are. Yeah. There's this letter is best understood with the teaching that he already gave them. So we don't know that we have it all. We're making an assumption at the end of it, he says, so then, that's a so then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. So a word of mouth is him teaching them. The letter is what we have that we just studied. And if you just use that letter, it's faith, love, and hope. It's the foundation of all the things we do. We work on ourselves, we love others, and then we connect people to that hope of of the future story of Jesus. So he just anchors them right back in that. He opens up this whole can of worms of this topic. So I don't know what you want to talk about. I I was so afraid, not afraid, no, I'm not afraid. I was nervous because I don't I never oh man. Can can we take two minutes, three minutes in this? This is a safe place. Why Scott doesn't teach this or on a Sunday, and why I think these topics are better relegated to groups is most people will leave with more questions, which is not terrible. They'll leave with more questions than answers. When really I believe the felt need on a Sunday is to connect people to the gospel message, which really is the heart of what we're gonna read today or look at today. So to deal with that topic in a large forum on a Sunday, people are gonna be like, what was all that for? The the son of lawless, lawlessness and and it's not been revealed, and don't worry, we're not out of here yet. And that letter that was written 2,000 years ago was not from me, kind of kind of those thoughts. We can have all those conversations. Yeah. So I I I believe in a context where you have a study that's maybe 12 weeks or 10 weeks, sit down and go over this stuff so you can rightly measure it and carry it and think about end times, and then when you leave, you still go back to the so then. So that's why I don't on a Sunday, because my target audience, I would rather introduce them to Christ and then move along in the disciplines while looking at things in context. So why are we talking about end times? Because it's in the book that we're studying.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

That's good. Um, so what's this is a separate letter. We've wrapped up first Thessalonians. So this is another letter Paul is writing to them. Do you have any any setup for the time in between? We know we don't know exactly how long.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Most believe it was months after, pretty, pretty soon after, because the context is pretty tight. One thing I have failed to say every time is this is not just written by Paul. He's got a group of people that are it's a think tank. Some buddies. Yeah, we need to say that. But if you read what verses one down through four, it's clear that that was he's referring to, and the same person that's writing this letter, I've told you before, some people argued whether or not he wrote it. You read that first part, that is referencing what we've already just spent two weeks studying. Yeah. So it's all clearly there.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

Silas or Sylvaniaus and Timothy is running buddies. They are encouraging, encouraged by and encouraging the church. And I'm thinking if you can be a church that is encouraging the faith of Paul, you're probably doing something right. Yeah. That's probably the church we should strive to be. That he is amazed by their example. So stoked to hear how well they're doing. And especially in light of they had three or four weeks with them, maybe, and they're crushing it. There's a funny thread too about the fact that Paul established this church himself. So there's kind of a funny thread of Paul being like, he's kind of patting himself on the back in some ways.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I didn't even think about that. That's pretty funny.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

You know, it's it's the very human element of like he would almost be there's the there was the thought that he'd almost kind of downplay talking them up because you're like, Well, didn't you start this church? And he's like, And you guys are crushing it. But you can tell and from this letter too, he's he's very compelled to to keep it, and that I think in all of Paul's letters, the way he says this is we we can't help but thank God for you. Like we ought to thank God. There's this verbiage that he uses that he doesn't use in any other letters, and there was the belief that they were after the first letter, they're kind of downplayed in humility, like, oh, we don't we don't deserve all this praise. And now Paul is doubling down on it, saying, We absolutely have to commend you because of your faith. So there was a, I think, a kind of a back and forth that we don't fully, fully know, but it's kind of speculative in the way that the words are used in this.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

I I think there's also a little um sometimes you can tell what the problem is by looking at the the amount of emphasis that you put on a particular piece. Right. So if you're going to super high praise someone, then maybe it's because that person is struggling with whatever, whatever that thing is. Um you look at these guys, clearly there's a horrible degree of persecution that's taking place. They're at they're wondering about those who have died. Um, so so the edification of, man, you're renowned, you're known throughout the community. I I also look at that and think, man, maybe they're feeling defeated. Maybe they're really struggling, and either they don't see the impact that they've had, or Paul is really trying to encourage them. Uh, you know, I've always understood prophecy not to be the foretelling of the future, but the calling out of somebody, something that they that God has placed there. So calling it into being, somebody that might be uh you you look and you see someone you you you have a sense that they're called to ministry, but they but they're insecure about it, and you'll be like, man, listen, God has done this in your life. I see the way that you did this, this, and this, although maybe in an infant stage in their understanding, but you start to in you start to elevate that, then they they get the belief, and then they start to see the gifts that are there, and then they develop them, they bring them. So maybe he's looking at this church as it's you know coming out of this struggle and really trying to encourage them. You know, yeah. But yeah, but it it speaks to exactly what you said. They they are probably feeling like, oh, don't give us any of that praise. Yeah. He's like, no, man, you guys are killing it. Yeah. You should be gone by now.

unknown 11:46

What?

SPEAKER_03 11:47

How are you? How are you guys doing this? Uh, which he knows how and he'll tell them how. But um, so for me, and I told you this earlier in the week, but it was this one was of the what we've done so far, it was the hardest for me to connect with it at first, but I feel like I finally found some some places to to really dig into. And it's I think it is really slow reading it and focusing on these specific truths and verses we'd call them verses, but the truths that he is is talking about. So I want to ask you a couple. Verse three your faith, um your faith is flourishing and your love for one another is growing. So flourishing faith and growing love in the midst of persecution. That's that makes a mark. And what what is it about what is it about times of trial or trouble or persecution that that affects our faith that way to where it either sinks or swims.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah. Oh well, I think you and I are viewing this different. I think that sentence and the next one is a setup for his topic. But it's it's not that setup as in he's it's not a hollow compliment. I am certain that he is he is talking about the most important things in light of what he's about to talk about. So your faith and your what was the other thing he said? Your love, which are the same topics, right, that he's carried through the other things. These things are flourishing, they're growing. Then he's about to lean into, um, and I want you to know that God, it's you're in this time of testing and trial, and God is doing this work in you. So as much as you may be like, oh man, this is terrible, it's rotten, it's horrible. Like, why are we dealing with this? If we love God, we shouldn't have to deal with this. He goes, Oh, no, no, this is purifying. Yeah. God is doing this work. So I think he's pointing at it, and then he's pointing at the challenge and he's going, This is awesome. And they're like, nah, this is terrible. Yeah. So I think to some way, uh that's a side answer to what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Well, I was taking a step back to think about maybe us today. Because I I agree with you in the sense of his letter. That's not his main point. He's speaking those truths to tell him to where he's going because he's going to talk about the per persecution as we'll get to. And two, yeah. There was another letter going out, supposedly from him, that he's speaking to about trying to help them navigate a faith that could be shaken, which they're not. Um, so I think it it begs the question though, if we're looking back at this church, this time, persecution, and their faith flourishes, that so often I think we see we seek comfort, but our faith doesn't really grow in comfortable times.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

It's a good point. That's a good point. It's yeah, it's in the struggles of life. That that um, you know, most most movies don't start off happy and go happy and then stay happy. Yeah. Very I mean, they I they don't typically sell. There has to be a conflict, there has to be a struggle, and then there has to be something on the other side. Doesn't mean it has to resolve, but that that's how our that's the God story that's in us, I think, that oftentimes shows up. So you're you're not wrong. You're not wrong in that. That is that is the pattern of well, that's the pattern of faith.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

It's good. Uh God will use this persecution, verse five, to show his justice. I want to ask you about this phrasing to make you worthy of his kingdom for which you are suffering.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Oh man. I I knew of all of the questions I've had, I've I should have known that you were gonna try and do that. Um What am I doing? I I read that, and um so let let's let's read the rest. Okay. So uh this is this is evidence of the righteous judge. So verse five, this is evidence of the righteous judgment of God and is and is intended. So it's not I don't think it's it's so that the the the struggle, the persecution, it's intended to make you worthy of the kingdom of God. So that struggle you walk through makes you worthy of that, for which you are also suffering. For it is intended just as God to repay and to give relief to those when the Lord Jesus Christ is revealed with his there was a thing in oh man. Um for me, I read that and understood that as that's the over intent that's that's the stated goal of preparation, right? But it's not you have to dive back into the understanding of of justification and sanctification. So it's back to that sanctification process. This uh persecution that you're going through is working the design in you, the design of God in you, make you worthy of the kingdom of God. I I don't I don't know how else to answer that. So it's not I if you're if you're wanting me to say, do you go through this so that you become worthy? Well, that goes against everything I believe. I think it's it is a purification that makes you um more aligned.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Yeah, it's just it stuck out to me. I don't know that I have a super deep thought on it, other than you're worthy of his kingdom, and then in eleven he says worthy of his calling. So it seems to be a thought of yeah. They and Paul is reiterating, like, the work that's being done in them is done by the Lord Jesus. It's not He's he's applauding them for their faith and love, but also he's really clear that Jesus is the one working in their life to produce these things. Right. So there is that I don't know if you call it a dichotomy or whatever, about just like these are the things we aspire to. These things are worthy of God's kingdom and calling on our life, faith, hope, and love, encouragement, uh, faith in the midst of persecution and trouble and trial. And still yet, and it connects back to John 13 when he says your love for one another, that's the thing that's making the difference. That's the thing that people are pointing to. That's the thing that's encouraging Paul's group. Right. And those things, as Jesus says, you know, love one another. That's how the world's gonna know that you're my disciples. And that's I think that's being lived out here, which is really cool to see. And I think a reminder for us, no matter what we're facing, those comfortable moments and times that we strive for, I just want security and peace, and those things are good. But you know, that all comes from the Lord Jesus, not from anything external.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah, not conflict avoidant. Yeah. But but so translation is a little different, but mine says this is evidence. So he's talking about the persecutions and afflictions. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, and it is intended to make you worthy of the kingdom of God. So I I think the persecution of the things you're walking through, that's evidence that God is doing his work in you. And that does it help that there's a purpose for it that you could know it. I might, maybe. Right. And it does if you're struggling. Right. Well, I don't know how much it helps, but at least you you can recognize because then you get some people that are like, oh, this is God doing a deep work inside of me. And I'm like, no, that was a dumb decision. Right. So I at some point, some point you gotta understand that he's talking about the persecution of them as believers in the early church. So I'm not trying to put it. That's right. Sometimes we um we make bad decisions and we pay for it and we blame it on God and his doing the righteous work inside of us when really God's like, no, you're just an idiot.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

Sometimes we have to deal with our consequences, sometimes we have to deal with our consequences. And God, luckily, as a redeemer, can redeem anything, but yeah, that's not always.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Did you just put a gospel message on that? You did a good good call.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Um kind of so the kind of goes in line.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

The thing for me in chapter one, uh, that is as clear as can be, and also can and and you can run this chapter and make it as difficult as you want to. In simplest, in simplest terms, uh the way I understood it today is that that that when you talk about the judgment of God, yeah, all sin will be dealt with. Okay, so in terms of a just God, every sin that's ever been committed will be reconciled. It just will be. So when we stand there and we go, well, what about this? What about that? Every sin, every wrong will be reconciled. And it'll be reconciled in one of two ways. Either through the cross of Christ or through ourselves, and we're gonna own our sin. Non-believers. So when you're a believer and you you accept the righteousness of Christ, then you exchange your righteousness for his righteousness, our garbage, our sin, our brokenness, and you take the righteousness of Christ on. So in that sense, we are right in terms of this judgment because of the because we believe and we hold fast to and we've repented, and not because we're perfect. That's where that worthy thing gets a little interesting. But but we um we've repented and and allowed for that that uh that salvation to happen in our lives. But then there's the other side. And he says the the sentence in verse 8, a lot of conversation this morning, um uh talking about him returning uh from heaven with his mighty angels, and flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus, these will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction. Uh you know, that's that there's so there's the two sides. There's those where the sin will be dealt with here. There's those who don't believe God and aren't aren't aren't holding to that.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

You're you deal with your own sin. Yeah. And God is a just God.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

It's it's it's we we try to think about this and we try to rationalize this, we try to make sense. I don't know that we can. Because we'll rationalize the stuff that we want to do in our lives. And God is not that way. God is a just God. The word vengeance, um, we talked about it in our Bible study this morning, is oftentimes seen with a negative negative connotation. But vengeance is a word that originally uh was connected to justice. Um so you you can't, you know, you can't think that vengeance is an evil thing. If something is wrong and God is a just good God, He will right that wrong, and there will be a penalty for that sin. Period. That's that's just the truth. So if you're a believer in Jesus, then And you've given that sin and Jesus carries that sin? Or if you're not, then you own that sin. All of it. Every single bit of it. Questions about any of that or thoughts about any of that?

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Well, now who's putting gospel message in here? Yeah, I just did.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Yeah. Well, but it's it's really clear. Here's the other piece, and let's just go down this road. Okay. Um, I think the way that the church has held the conversation about hell fiery pit, um, burning forever, uh, a picture of the devil with a pitchfork sitting on a throne in hell. Yeah. Those images around them. And maybe that worked for the 80s and the 90s. And and I'm not saying there's not a hell. Please don't hear me say that. Uh uh, I think our picture and our image of hell is terrible. Not terrible, meaning, oh, it's terrible. Like it's a horrible rendition. People these days they go, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

It's ridiculous. Yeah. A better understanding of hell is what Paul writes right here in the rest of verse nine. Separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. Imagine a world absent of all things good. The the very measure in us of justice, where somebody abuses a person, you go, that's wrong. That's all of that gone. Imag because really that that little piece that's inside of us where we try to measure out what's good or bad, is the residue or the image of God that's in us imperfectly. But imagine a world devoid of that. That's hell. I'd say that's hell. You could describe it as a fiery pit. You could but we do an injustice to the horrific nature of what this world would be like if we just not just if we try to say the devil's got a pitchfork and he's he's ruling over this little hot place in the center of the earth. It doesn't even begin to paint a picture of what it would be like to be in a world absent of all things good.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Yeah, and it's it's on the other side, the eternal nature, just like um we think of heaven and that eternity on the other side of this life for us. It is the flip side of that, and it is much like you've talked about our image of God sitting on a cloud with angels playing harps, that's not that's not a picture truly of who God is and what heaven is like. And the same way, I think movies and all the things have done a disservice to what it's hell hell truly is. Well And we don't know. No, we don't really know.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

We had a conversation this morning. You you had your metaphors and you got your so when you read scripture, some people they read it and they look at it literal. Nothing wrong with that. It's just how you view things, how you figure it out. Then there's people that'll say it's metaphorical, and sometimes you've you feel if somebody says it's metaphorical that we're dismissing it or dismissing it. I've I try to look at both. But but here is one thing I know for certain. If God gives you a vision or gives you insight and you're a writer in scripture, you you you have to describe what it is that you're seeing, and the only the only tools you have are the words you know. Right? Like imagine, I just try to imagine somebody, if you're if I'm in Zimbabwe and I'm trying to explain to a person in Zimbabwe, I don't know, a piece of equipment that we have, a jet, and I'm sure they've seen jets, but a jet that's flying across the sky, what what terms I would use to explain that. Imagine uh these guys trying to put into words in times that God has given them an open vision to see or or to carry. Why would a person write that hell is an open flame burn, you know, a pit of sulfur that that the enemy's gonna be in for a thousand years, or maybe metaphorically, that's all that's the only tools that they had to say. I'm not trying to take away from it how horrible it's gonna be. Say maybe that's the only terms. But eventually you get to this place and our vocabulary is expanded, our understanding is expanded. Not taken away from the horrific nature of what it would be like to be apart from God, but maybe that picture doesn't bother us anymore because of what we've seen in movies and thoughts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

So I Well, on the flip side, too, there's the thought out there. I've seen it a lot of about the question of if you could have everything you ever want, no sickness, no pain, you know, everything's great, but but Jesus isn't there, you know, what would you take? Do you are you taking Jesus or are you taking the stuff that you feel like would be awesome for you? So there is a sense too on on the on the on the heavenly side of it, like what are we really hoping for? Is it actually the presence of God? Is it is it to be with Jesus forever? Is it to worship him? Is it that, or is it oh yeah, I'd like to live in the world where I can do whatever I want. Right? So there's that there you have to kind of reconcile those thoughts too about what what are we actually have our faith in? Like, are we just do we want Jesus to punch our ticket so we're good for eternity, or is there actually that longing and that desire to be with him and to know him and to um, you know, spend some time.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, do we desire the things of God or do we desire God? Yeah. Right. I mean I that's a great question.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

A wrestle, yeah, a wrestle that tale is old as time, right? Value the creator or the or what he creates.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah, and we have we pastors have sold people into believing in the things of God, wanting the things of God, desiring the things of God instead of wanting God. There's a difference. There really is a difference.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Because wanting God might bring you to this place, to where you're persecuted. Yeah. And you have to fight for your faith. Yep, that's right versus health, wealth, and happiness, baby. You know, that's that's a God of create of that we've created that that that this is the God that says, hey, even in uh persecution like faith, hope, and love.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah. And this chapter is is a clear delineation. You you are you choose God or you don't get God. That's it. I mean that's that and and and there's a real clear distinction about the gospel in in verse nine, in in verse eight, there's a clear distinction about the gospel, and I believe it's because the people that are persecuting them are the Jews or those who are incited by the Jews. So because Paul is using the Old Testament or the Hebrew text, it would not have been an Old Testament, it would have been their only Testament during this time, to prove and to and to bolster his arguments about the incoming, he's he's making a delineation and saying, No, this is about Jesus. You believe in Jesus. And and he's using these apocalyptic terms, but it's it's in their own text, right? I mean, what they have to study, you have to see. So um it's really to me, it's clear, there's a line, there's Jesus and God, or Jesus and God, and who is God? Uh oh. Um, you got that.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

There's God, and then there's some I I didn't mention this earlier, but even in one and two or his intro, when he says God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, that in the Greek, that is it's he's saying the essence that they're one. Yeah. Like so that theology is already built in here saying the same theological Jesus is God. Yeah. Like that's that's what he's saying. So um okay. Question that'll help us get into two for a little bit and see where that goes. But um tendency, what's the move here to not get stuck in the ditch of either overanalyzing things we can't fully understand or ignoring things that we're like, I don't want to worry about. Is there a move here for us that uh that makes sense to to hold these things?

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yes. Uh uh context. I think it's gonna be context. Because the practical faith piece is you gotta wrestle it out of the context into your context. He's writing two people who are being persecuted. And if the simplest nature of chapter one is don't worry, this person well, this persecution is doing a work in you. But I'm gonna take care of those who are persecuting you and hold fast to this gospel because there is a promise for you. And I'm gonna I'm going to judge. God will judge those who are against you. He just will. Um period. That's it. That's how he that's how he pulls that together. So it's really a an encouragement for those who are going through persecution to know that God is a judge and he's going to judge those who are afflicting, and those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus, he's going to deal with them, he's going to judge them. That's how chapter one ends. So I think in the simplest nature of our own lives, you could carry that truth right on over. Right? So the battles that we're fighting, the things that we're fighting, it's it's a it's a two-sided thing. Number one, it's for your own life. Allow the persecution to do the work inside of you and know that God is going to set all things right. And then the second part is, and you don't want people to be on the other side of that. So you want to love them, you want to connect them to the gospel message. Yeah. You can go down all those other that in its simplest forms, he's encouraging them as they sit there in that place. Can we talk about judgment? Can we talk about eternal damnation? Can we talk about all those things? Sure. Why? You know, Paul used it as a as a way to encourage people. I still believe fear is not a great process for decision. We've talked about that until y'all are sick of it. But it could be the encouragement that brings you into a larger conversation. He quickly connected them from the fear of what life would be like after if you didn't to discipleship and to into the greater story. Yeah. So that that to me is one, which then rolls over into chapter two, which I called in my Bible study this morning the wild, wild west. A little bit. Because, you know, this is verses one, two, and three. I think you can wrestle and get your mind around uh from from four to twelve. Have fun. Right?

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Just say we know this is gonna happen, and we can argue about what it looks like all day long, but you know, Antichrist, the son of perdition, um, all of the favorite favorite phrases about the one who's gonna be most against God, all those things come into picture. Is it gonna be a person? Is it going to be an organization? Is it go ahead?

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Satan himself, who is this man of lawlessness, the what is it, the abomination of desecration creation desolation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Um there's a lot. It's abomination that brings desolation. Uh, I believe that's right. The uh where's the piece about Satan? Tell me where it's at. This coming of the lawlessness one is apparent in the working of Satan. Uh I had someone this morning that that brought up an interesting point. He said, So if Jesus was the son of God, is the Antichrist the son of Satan, like incarnate? I uh my own opinion is opinion, opinion. I believe that's giving cred Satan too much credit. The Antichrist is antichrist, everything antichrist. Not Satan is a fallen angel. He's not a god, he's just not. Yeah. So to say that the Antichrist, who is this one that is going to set the whole world against, is some super powerful being setting up Satan as a god, he's not. He's a fallen angel. Yeah. Right. So I think the Antichrist is the person that God will use. Let's just go ahead and say that. God will use and destroy.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Yeah, there's not a lot about Satan in the scripture. There's a lot, but not about like I mean, there's different not him as like his story. Right, I guess. Oh no, you're 100% correct. Lucifer, the tempter, like the Antichrist.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

There's all these different names, and it so it's I mean there's entire the theologies that are built around it. You have one or two verses in the Old Testament where it w that that it are used to predict the fall of Lucifer from heaven, and then there's some some jumps that try to say that that's the same Satan, devil, person thing. Yeah. And then and then mostly in the New Testament, Satan is referred to as the adversary, not trying to downplay it because Jesus talks about um about the spiritual battles that are taking place, and there's demons that are cast out. But you know, we put a lot of emphasis on one angel demon thing. When really we I've you've heard me say this before, you gotta figure out what you're battling. There are spiritual forces you're battling.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

You're also battling yourself.

unknown 33:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

And you're also battling this broken world that's trying to kill you at every step.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

The enemy, the enemy within, and the enemy of the world. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So just, you know, I think giving Satan too much credit. For sure. Uh but and two, the even in one, the the first part you're saying, let us clarify some things. So you see her straight away, he's saying, hey, let me just clear up some things so that you won't be easily shaken or alarmed. So again, to speak to encouragement and hope, Paul's, yeah, is he giving a theological treatise on this? Maybe. Or is he just offering some hope because there was a letter signed by Paul, many believe that was going around that said, hey, you're in the end times now. This is the Great Tribulation. And he's saying, Hey, not it. Remember? Yeah. This is not what I told you. And even though there's a letter with my name on it, supposedly, don't be so shaken. But we we would never be easily shaken ourselves, right? Yeah. By something that we thought was true, but then we see something else, and we're kind of like, Oh, well, could that be true?

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Most scholars, just like you said, believe that somebody got a let turn a letter loose and sign it with Paul's name with some teaching, and it freaked him out, shaken in mind or alarmed that the rapture or the taking out of the church, the removal of the church, that's not bad. The removal of the church had already happened, and they're like, Wow, we literally missed out. Yeah, we missed out. They were less than don't even say that. Um, he he and he's like, No, because and then this, right? So a lot of scholars, they start in chapter two, verse one, as to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. So just establish this. That is the event. And just know that um if we're gonna say, as to the coming of the Wild West Fall Fest, I'm not comparing the two, but I'm there in the coming of the Wild West Fall Fest, there's going to be many parts.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

So he says, as to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him. So the gathering together with him is one part of the coming of the Lord Jesus. He says, Don't be worried, right? He says, We we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us to the effect of that day of the Lord is already here. It's like, no, so you didn't miss it. When that day happens, that's gonna happen. And then the rest of this stuff is gonna happen. Right. Fair? Yeah. So like he really splits it. He says, The coming of the day of the Lord, that that part where we're gonna be gathered together, you somebody told you that happened, that's not happened. So, in one hand, you have to say, All right, so the coming of the day of the Lord, that's this is back to that part of we wish we had this other part of his teachings. We don't. Right. Um, that's gonna happen. That's one piece of it. But then this other stuff is gonna happen. And then he starts talking about the lawless one being revealed, the son of perdition, the antichrist, whatever you want to say, he's gonna annihilate them with the mouth with uh uh with breath out of his mouth. You know, uh be and then and then there's this, oh man, this is just too much to get into. Um uh verse nine, the coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing. This is important, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. So there's the picture of the absolute refusal to believe. Yep. That followed by verse 11. For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false. Now, some people are like, that doesn't sound fair. Doesn't sound fair. This is happening to people who have refused. Um, I I I try to I try to think about uh folks who just deny, deny, deny, deny, and then eventually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

You believe that, you were looking for that, that's what you got. Right? People their whole lives that are like, I don't believe the messages, I don't believe the messages, then we try to pray them into heaven or into whatever eternity looks like after this. And you know, uh God is I we have to know and believe that the nature, the love, the heart of a God, if God is truly a God of love, he's doing everything he can for people to know and understand.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Yeah. You know what a an accompaniment for this to me has been is is uh first and second Peter. I love the writings that Peter talks about um because he's he's saying, hey, some of you guys think like God's being slow in coming back. Yeah, because he speaks to the this coming back in the end times too. Um but he says he's actually he's being patient because he's being pay-yeah, don't think of it slow, he's being patient.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

He's being patient because he loves great. That's a great point, guys.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

He loves he loves everyone and he wants everyone to come to know his love and choose that. And so there's so much when you step back and look at the greater hole, because you can totally get your head lost in this stuff and be like, ah, what is that? I gotta understand this. To me, it's like I don't think it's a cop out to say, Hey, Jesus is gonna win, the victory is his, in a breath, it's over. But also to hold on to the hope that he's actually he's being not slow, he's being patient. God is very patient and very kind.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Yeah, uh so I don't you don't want to spend time on this, but it would be so interesting as a church, not and by interesting I mean painful, and I would never do it to sit and try and teach that.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Is that another word for interesting?

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Yeah. The the f uh verse um verse six, and you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. That is the most obscure thing ever, right? Biblical scholars go, oh, that's the Holy Spirit is restraining him, the son of perdition or the lawless one. Okay. But then, you know, if I was a good preacher, I'd go, and let me tell you where that's showing up in the world today. But all of that is made up, man. Not made up. It's just it's great preaching. Yeah. It's great preaching.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

How how maybe the made up in the sense that it's not true, but it's not knowable.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah, I and I gosh, man, I gotta, I'm getting so much trouble saying that. I don't mean that people are making it up. Trying to help people. Yeah, it's not it's not knowable. I think what you can say is that the Holy Spirit, back to your point from Peter, is is restraining the full effects of evil in this world. But if we believe that at some point Christ is gonna call everyone to himself and God is gonna take his ball and we're all going home, then this world is left with the full effect of evil in the world, and that restraint is no longer in place. That's that's the choice. Yeah, you get God or you get that. Right. Period. We can talk about it all day long and try and bring uh current affairs into all of this stuff, and you and you could. They're great talking points, or you can just the generalities allow you to just take and plug it in and go, okay, I don't I don't want to be in that. I don't want to be in that.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah. So I know your heart for for how much you love to invite people to to believe. I mean, that's that's a weekly thing, and and you can just see it's very evident your your true care um for that and for your hope for those to choose Jesus. I see that. Is there is there a I mean spending some time in this and realizing here's ultimately what it's gonna look like, does that give you almost that a sense of urgency? Not to scare you from hell, but just to know the difference of what a life with Jesus, the author of life is, and one without.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

A thousand percent. Well, how it's settled up for me today, it could be a sense of urgency. I think people are their temperament's gonna carry it. What it what it did for me today is go, God, this really matters. It really matters. For people to know you can't just shoot the gap. I want a little bit of God, I want a little bit of the world. It doesn't work, it doesn't work that way. Um, you know, you believe in God. It doesn't mean you're perfect. No, so like once again, we're all in these semantics. By believing in God, it does not mean that you'll never make another mistake, right? It's it's spending the rest of your life trying to reconcile and understand that, and then allowing that process of sanctification and change to happen in your life. But but it is believing. It is believing. You if you choose not to believe, then you're either you're banking on a couple things. Either that none of this is true, and maybe we Jews just vanished back into maybe we maybe this earth did come, maybe it came out of nothing. I have no idea. That can be your bet. Yeah. Or you're or you're choosing not God. You it's a choice. You choose God or you choose not God. And you can go choose all the other things in history that have been made up as God or said that's God. Whatever you want. This is Yeah, there's no shortage of things to believe. No shortage of things to believe. This is what I believe. Right. And I believe it bec not just because of not just because this book says it. I believe it because the testimony of the church, I believe it because this book says it. I believe it because I've experienced it in my life, and because it not not that it makes sense because I've understood it, but it has made sense to me that the rhythms of grace and the rhythms of the text show up in my life over and over and over again. There is good, there is evil, and I believe it's best understood and reconciled in what we read here. So when you get to these texts where it says, hey, this is gonna happen, it makes me want to go, hey, quit jacking around. Yeah. Make a decision and believe. Right? Like you make a decision and believe. If you're waiting to get all the answers, we had that qu we had that in our thing this morning. They're like, give me the answer. I'm like, you don't get the answers. Right. You can answer some of the questions, or you can feel better about some of the answers, but you don't get that luxury. We're not God. We we are informed in the image of God, so we try to convince ourselves that we need to know all the you will never have all the answers. So, yeah, I I have a real sense of urgency that the message is important this week. It's important every week. It's important every week. Yeah. Maybe a little bit more clear today because we're Talking about the end times, and there will be a moment. Oh, okay, first of all, we're all going to have that moment in life. It may not be a moment where the sky is cracked and Jesus descends, but it could be the moment that we breathe our last breath or our heart stops beating or a car accident or any of those things that take us uh out of the physical nature and into the eternal. Yeah. The rest of the eternal. That moment is a guarantee to everyone. Yeah. I tried to give it in the first week where I said the thing about this world that we need to know is that it is taking our life away every single day. Absolutely is. The last thing I'll say for those who don't come to church on Sunday, verse 15 of chapter 2. After all of that, he says, So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word, that's the teaching you had of mouth, or by the by our letter. So then, faith, love, and hope.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Stand firm.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Don't go out and start talking about the Antichrist. I mean you can, you can share that message. But go back, transform, love a person, hold on to hope.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

Yep. And hey, what did Jesus say? The world's gonna know you by the way you teach the end times. Is that what he said? By your understanding of theology. You love one another. Love one another. Love one another. Hate to make it so simple, but because like you said, it's not that's not a simple task. It's not loving the unlovable.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

It's not. And in and faith is not a simple decision. The decision might be simple. It's not a dis it's not oh man.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Come Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

It's gonna be good. Yeah, there's a lot of weight in all of this and not just uh yeah. Yeah. I didn't know, I had no idea how this conversation was gonna go. And how did it go?

SPEAKER_02 45:43

It was great.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

Well, I think it's great. Yes. I mean the gospel's all over it. Um it matters. Teaching matters, understanding scripture matters. I mean, Paul's saying that. He's like, hey, my our teaching, like, stand firm in that. So that matters. I think community really matters a lot. Um, the encouragement that they're having from from one another and seeing that example.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Um I'm looking at our time, as we've been going a long time. I want to add one more thing though. Come on. Okay, so in context, back to this piece. He talks about the son of law or the lawlessness in the temple and all of those different things. Right? You get the battles in modern faith theologians trying to say, is it a person? Is it an organization? There were a lot of Protestants that believed it was actually the Roman Catholic Church. Sure. Right? And uh, but I'm gonna I think that's giving the Roman Catholic Church a lot of credit that it could be the the the the full weight of the Antichrist in all the world. That's ridiculous. That's not it. So and I'm not to I'm not trying to offend any of the Catholics out there. That's that's what the Protestants believed back in the day. Um I I think you you have to put it back into context. I think it was Caligula. Caligula during the time was so angry at the Jews, and he knew of their temple of worship, that he fashioned a life-size statue of himself that he was going to place in the Holy of Holies, and it was destined to move to Israel into the temple. And that Joker died. Yeah. So before it could happen. So you just wonder, seriously. Now I'm not saying that's that's what he was talking about, because he's talking figuratively about all of it, but this is where the beauty of debating scripture comes from. That that was a real thing that was happening during this season. Yeah. So was he borrowing from that to to frame metaphorically, not trying to take away from anything that's there. It's just when you read text, hold it as text. Yeah. And then understand the baseline. So faith, love, hope. Stand firm. Don't be sure. That's all I've maybe belabored it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Awesome. Come on to church. Come on to church. Come on to church or log in. We'll get you some of this. Yeah. Well, thanks for uh thanks for sticking with us, those of you that stayed to leave. Uh, gonna be great. Um, love it. Thanks for your time, man. Love ya. We'll see y'all Sunday, bitch.